I had the unique experience of having James
White annihilate me on the Dividing Line while at the same time, over at Pulpit & Pen, I was being defended in a way. It's probably better to say that JD was agreeing with my position as he walked people through my conversation with Dr. White over FB Instant Messenger. It was an interesting experience. You should try it. What follows is my unedited copy and paste of the conversation I had with James White regarding the Michael Brown issue. You heard James White's description of me on the DL. If not, go give it a listen here starting at the 55:00 mark:
A few things are worth mentioning. For some time now I have thought that JD Hall was over the top. I am not on board with disrupting other people's events and I do think that tone matters. I do think these things are important, but I do not think they rise to the level of separation. Needless to say, I have tried to maintain a neutral position over the White-Hall rift. I care about the truth. I am not on anyone's team. As a result, I have had disagreements with Hall and now a major one with White. I care about the truth and I care about the body of Christ. And if anyone is being hurt in all of this, it is the body of Christ.
Now, I want to set the record straight. I am a regular listener of the DL. I have been for years although I don't often get to listen live because I am usually working. James and Rich positioned me as a troll entering the youtube channel. Well, I am not a troll. In fact, if you follow my blog, you know I have linked to James White from the beginning. But I suppose it is easier to prove your point when you start off by calling them a derogatory name. Ask the homosexual movement about this. Remember, true Christians are bigots. So when they argue with us, that's where they start. Michael Brown uses a similar approach. Anyone criticizing him is a hyper-critical person not worth his time. It's a common tactic used by people who don't have a real argument to stand up.
Second, not only am I not a troll, Rich never blocked me from James' FB page, at least not that I am aware of. I have not been commenting on the FB page because I am not friends with them and therefore, cannot make comments. So Rich is lying. If he blocked me on twitter, that must have happened this afternoon late and I have not been back in there to see. This is what people do when they aren't interested in being held accountable. I always thought James White was serious when he talked about the body holding each other accountable and our tendency to sin and stray and how we needed one another.
A final matter has to do with the notion that I left comments on Michael Brown's "Line of Fire" program on youtube. Well, that is true. What Dr. White failed to mention is that it was the video link that Dr. White sent me regarding the subject in question. Comments were enabled, other people made comments, and I was silly enough to think I could leave my own comments. I am unclear why it is a no-no to leave comments on a youtube video that has comments enabled but hopefully, someone will clue me in. As an FYI, a troll is someone who really has no true interest in a subject but wants to stir up controversy and argue JUST FOR THE SAKE of arguing and fighting. Calling someone a troll is another way to shut down dissenters. It is used as a weapon against those who care about discernment.
Now, here is the conversation I had with James White this morning, unedited in its entirety. You read it for yourself and listen to the dividing line and see if what you hear from James White is anything like you read in my comments to him as I express my concerns for a man I love and respect. My comments are in blue shade and Dr. White's are in grey.
TUE 4:53PM
I have decided to pull back from my glowing endorsements of you, something I have done for YEARS. Michael Brown endorses heretics and leads people toward those who practice outrageous acts of blasphemy in worship practices that are extremely bizarre. Recently, he went on record to say that the denial of the Trinity is not heresy. He sends people to heretics. He sends them to blasphemers, people he calls his friends, his brothers in Christ. And he uses your name to enhance his own credibility. I am deeply saddened by your decisions regarding Michael Brown. Your decision as to who is dangerous and who is not seems arbitrary at this point. If you like me, I am not dangerous. If you don't, then I am. With all due respect, you could use a dose of your own older medicine.
10:03AM
James R. White accepted your request.
A few points in response. 1) I will try to muddle on without your "glowing endorsements," since, to be honest, I've never seen them, nor are you known to me. 2) Your misrepresentation of MB is common, but nonetheless reprehensible. MB's unwillingness to join the anti-charismatic polemics cabal is understandable, given he is a charismatic. But the unwillingness of others to honestly evaluate who MB actually endorses (there are few) and who he refuses to condemn (not the same thing as endorsing---though in the minds of many, they are in fact the same) is a sad testimony to the degradation of truthfulness in Christian discourse. 3) Your statement, "he went on record to say that the denial of the Trinity is not heresy" is a bald-faced absurdity, worthy only of the source you derived it from, Pulpit and Pen. It is a lie. Period. Anyone promoting it is a liar. Period. Unlike MB's wild-eyed and dishonest critics (like P&P), I contacted MB and he read my words on his program and agreed with my statements. Let me guess---you didn't actually listen to what MB said. You just believed whatever you were told by P&P. Not unusual, but reprehensible nonetheless. I can't stop you from spreading falsehoods and misrepresentations---it is the common behavior of folks on the net these days. But I can hope you will become serious and start being careful about being truthful.
Actually, I am not a P&P fan. I find JDs tactics reprehensible. And you are WRONG sir. I listened MB's answer TWICE. TWICE Dr. White. I have appreciated your ministry for years. But MB has CLEARLY said you can hold to the fundamentals of the gospel AND be Oneness. This is a rejection of Nicea even though it isn't a rejection of the Trinity. Just calling me a liar is not addressing the issue. You're right, Dr. White. I am a nobody. I am NOT a celebrity. I am nothing. I am one of many who has been blessed by your ministry. And now, I am one of many who is extremely disappointed. You know PJ, TF, and JP and many other respectable men believe you are 100% wrong. That alone is enough for my position, which is identical to theirs, to at least deserve something more than a "your a nobody who is a liar and unworthy of consideration." I have tried NOT to get into this issue. You insist on pushing the MB issue and I felt like I should say something.
For what it is worth, I not only came out of the Pentecostal world, I was very close to oneness people, having gone to their churches and conversed with them for a number of years.
1) Before I replied to you, I looked at your page....you linked to the P&P hit piece. Oversight? 2) Which answer? His answer to the caller or the one where he read MY comments and agreed with them? I await your answer.
Start at 4:02
That is the only pace I could find the video. I don't like JD's behavior over the last couple of years but I still think he makes a good point on occasion and I think this is one of those occasions. My point is that Brown spent over 5 minutes refusing to call the rejection and denial of the Trinity heresy. He was teaching this woman that called in and ALL his listeners that the Trinity is NOT fundamental to the gospel nor to orthodoxy. You can reject it and still be saved. Its an "in house" debate. We look for you to step up and refute your friend openly and distance yourself from such teaching. It is deadly. Instead, you bring him on your show and enhance his credibility. Why can't you look him in the eye and say, Michael, your friends are heretics. Much of what you call "fire" is just blasphemous worship. And your downgrade of the Trinitarian doctrine is reprehensible. Do you not believe that it is. And when you attempt to spin it and interpret MB in the most positive light, we all shake our heads James. I love your ministry but you are losing us sir. We will not stand for another MB Toronto blessing movement that we all know is coming. He is not one of us.
I appreciate your ministry...I rely on you...but this MB is hurting all of us...at least all the guys I talk to
In other words, "Yes, I just listened to the one question, and no, I did not hear the rest of what MB said, and no, it doesn't matter that he read your comments, clarified his statement." Got it! That's where we part company. I am sure some folks would take my statement that more than 50% of evangelicals I know are modalistic in their views of the Trinity and twist that into saying "James White denies the Trinity is definitional of the gospel!" Easy to do---so common---my standards won't allow me to join in such internet hay-making. If you want to do it---you get to answer for it. Next, HURTING you? Oh goodness---now the "victim mentality" is invading Christianity, too? You can't take the good and leave the bad, can't go, "Wow, this is solid stuff on Psalm 22" without going "Oh and that means I have to adopt every attitude MB portrays toward Charismatic activities"? PLEASE! I just can't believe this, "Oh, we are being HURT by Michael Brown" drivel. Man up!
So, again, I listened to the 5+ minutes entirely, twice. I thought you would have been annoyed he dropped your name in an answer that bad. I respect you Dr. White. I will continue to use your materials and listen to your debates. The fact remains that you have done NOTHING to refute my points about MB. And you have done NOTHING to justify your endorsement of him other than to tell me I should be able to take the good and throw the bad away. I don't need MB's good, what little there is. I can get his good from good guys who don't endorse heretics. We are all sad to see you run to this man's defense. We can't justify it in our minds. MB endorses heretics: yes. Michael Brown pushes worship practices that are blasphemous: yes. Michael Brown displaces the Trinity, making it a non-essential component of Christian belief: yes. And you seem immoveable. And we cannot understand why. I won't trouble you any longer. I know you are busy. I love you. I appreciate your ministry. I respect you highly. But on this issue, you couldn't be more wrong in my humble opinion.
OK, so, he AGREED with my position and answered my question and yet you go, "Nope, didn't change a thing." OK. We're done. Have a nice life!
Chat Conversation End
Now, if you want to hear a very fair assessment of this conversation, go over to P&P’s polemics report. JD broke it down well and he was extremely fair and more importantly, he was accurate. At a minimum, you should get both sides of the story before throwing someone under the bus based purely off James White’s comments. They were misleading because he completely and totally ignored the context of the conversation. He deliberately only told you the side of the story he wanted you to hear. I was shocked. And now I am wondering how many other times has he done this? How many times have I made a bad judgment about someone based on something Dr. White said. NEVER AGAIN! That was my sin. Thank you, Dr. White for giving me a taste of that better medicine. I have learned from it.
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